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Nick Rhodes of Duran Duran
By Eric R. Danton| Performing Songwriter Magazine| December 2007 Issue 106; Pg. 64 to 66
By Eric R. Danton| Performing Songwriter Magazine| December 2007 Issue 106; Pg. 64 to 66
Give Nick Rhodes credit: His keyboards are a crucial part of the sound that made Duran Duran into enduring global pop stars – and he’s self –taught.
From his days as a teenager dabbling with primitive sequencers to his current role as a skilled keyboardist and producer, Rhodes helped define the sound- and look of 80's pop music with Duran Duran. Formed in 1978 when Rhodes was just 16 the group enjoyed worldwide mega success throughout the 80’s with synth-laced songs like: "Rio” and “Hungry Like the Wolf”. With their stylish, stylised music videos, they sold more than 85 million records along the way on the strength of Singapore Simon Le Bon’s sex appeal and Rhodes' innovative work on the keys.
Yet even now, 30 years into his career, Rhodes has no intention of backing away from the cutting edge.
“I'm excited when something is unique and breaks new ground” he says from London. “That’s part of the ethos of Duran Duran. We never want to be like anybody else."
The band set the pace again on its latest album, Red Carpet Massacre, becoming the first rock group to work with in demand urban producers Timbaland and Nate “Danja” Hills, who have produced hits for Justin Timberlake, Missy Elliott and Britney Spears.
How did you come to work with Timbaland?
He has honestly the only producer we could all agree on. We’ve worked with a lot of different producers during our career, and the ones we’ve got the most interesting out of have been urban producers. With four and at one time five of us in the band. {Currently the band consists of original members Rhodes, Len Bon, drummer Roger Taylor and bassist John Taylor}, there are a lot of ideas already, a lot of musicality, and we’re looking for someone who brings something new to the party. With a lot of the rock producers, we’ve got a lot of that stuff covered. Someone like Timbaland is a much more exciting proposition to us because he’s produced so many great records. We loved everything he did with Missy Elliot, his work with Justin Timberlake and Nelly Furtado. It just feels fresh. So we asked if he’d like to work with us and he was keen. He’d never worked with a rock band before, so it was a challenge for him. None of know what we were going to get out of it. But when we went in to the studio it was Nate Hills, Justin [Timberlake], Timberland and the four of us, so if we couldn’t get something new that we all liked out of that combination then we were doing something terribly wrong.
You came up with three songs very quickly with Timberland. What was it like that the first day in the Studio?
Everyone was very cautious at first. They've never seen so much live gear – guitars and amps and things. They didn’t know what to do. They’re used to working with a computer and keyboard. But we all wanted it to work, so we figured we needed to allow them to space to do what they were really great at, which is the beats and sonic quality. It was pretty extraordinary. They actually don’t work that radically different than we do, because we’re used to working with machines. It would have been a shock for a regular rock band but we’re such a hybrid. By the time we came to the third of the trilogy we did together “Skin Divers”, we started from scratch. We all plugged in and jammed together, just the six of us playing –and that was a real adrenaline rush. Tim is so great with his beats on keyboards, and Roger was playing live drums and John was playing live bass and Nate and I were playing melodies and keyboard parts. It was a different sort of wall of sound. But I love the way they work. They're enthusiastic, intelligent, quick. They make good decisions, and that is what production is about: knowing when you’ve the right thing and not being afraid to stick your neck out.
You didn’t’ mind sharing keyboard duties with Nate?
I loved it. Nate is a fantastic musician. He’s got great taste in sounds which is one of my only fears. I thought. : “Oh no, what if I really don’t like the sounds he comes out with?” and I figured, “Well, I’ll just tell him.” But there was no need. We have very similar tastes. It reached a point where Nate and I would jam on songs and listen back and not know who played what. That was great because we complemented each other and filled the gaps where the other left space.
You never had any formal musical training, so that drew you to the keyboards?
I was convinced when I was 13 or 14 that I should be a guitarist. After a couple of years I had mastered most of the barre chords, but I hadn’t taken to it like a duck to water, and I was getting more interest in electronic music. But synthesizers were very expensive. Moogs were thousands of pounds, and a 16-year old couldn't afford that. Then this synthesizer called the Wasp came out around 1978 when we stated he original line up of the band. So I worked, saved and bought it for a couple of hundred pounds. I had never learned keyboards so I started to learn about synthesizers and sound. I can’t tell you how thrilled I was that B came straight after A. And C came straight after B on the keyboards because I had no clue. Then I thought, “This really makes sense. Whoever came up with this really knew what they were doing.” I started with a monophonic synthesizer, developed from there and bought a polyphonic synthesizer. I stared to learn all the chords on it. Within the first couple of years, I had a fairly good understanding of how things worked, and by the time we did our first album, I’d mastered most of the machine. I understood sequencing a dhow to lock things together. I listed tot a lot of melodies and worked out a lot of other people’s songs. I taught myself like that.
Was you lack of formal training help or a hindrance?
A huge help, because I didn’t that to think about any rules. Some of the earlier Duran songs had minor melodies against major chords or the other way around – things that I don’t think a classically trained musician would feel comfortable with. We were never afraid of those things. I could take something wherever I wanted. Now that I know a little more theory because of all the songs we’ve written, I sometimes have to convince myself to break those rules and say, “That’s where it probably should go, but wouldn’t it be more interesting if it went somewhere else instead?”
What attracted you to electronic music?
Mostly Kraftwerk. Autobahn was the first of their albums I heard, and there was just something so different about it. It felt modern. Then with bands like the Human league that were a little head of us in England, and a lot of the German bands –NEU! I also liked some of Can – it felt like the future to me. I’ve always been very forward thinking. Even when I listened to David Bowies’ spectacular records Heroes and Low. I felt there was a lot one could do with electronics. I liked the idea that I could be in an orchestra. I could play strings and electronic drums and things that sounded somewhat like guitars. Now, obviously, with samples you can make it sound like anything you like, but even back then you could make something sound like a flute or violin. I know the idea of building layers. That’s what I did at the beginning, because I couldn’t play very complex piano parts with bother bands, so I would build all he separate parts. I could do them a couple of notes at a time, and it created a style that was unlike what you would have played on a piano. It sounded unique, but it worked, because I understood what notes I wanted in there.
Were you ever interested in a more classical approach to piano?
Not so much. I do have a piano at home and play sometimes. I love working things out. If I hear a beautiful melody, I like to go and figure it out –“Oh, it’s in that key! Interesting, now where does it go?” – Because when someone writes a beautiful song, the progression feels very natural even thought the best ones are surprising. You make it feel natural and seamless. The Beatles and Bowie were as good as anyone at that. But I never had the real urge to play Rachmaninoff. I don’t have the patience of time to spend becoming as good as I would want to be. I love listening to piano music, particularly Chopin’s “Nocturnes", but I don’t see myself as a pianist. I would never tell somebody I was. I’m a synthesist who plays with piano occasionally.
How does being a synthesist inform the way you produce music?
I think layers and layers of sound. We’ve always built out tracks in the studio. Now it’s so easy to put things in a computer and start building a song. At the beginning, we used to write them and then we’d go into eh studio and see how we wanted to structure the. We’d usually start at the bottom end with the bass and drums and possibly a sequencer. And then build things form there in layers. I’d think about it in the same way I’d think about and orchestra. Somebody once said to me, and I’m sure it’s a famous quote, that the space in music is equally important as wherever you put the notes. That stuck with me.
Has your approach changed over the years?
The biggest change is computers, technology and Pro Tools and, in synthesizers, the move from analog to digital, which I’ve resisted greatly. I did use digital synthesizer on “Notorious” and the Big Thing album. But during the 90’s I used analog things again because they sounded so much better. On the new album, I’ve used almost entirely digital synthesizers, and the dear old analog Jupiter 8 is featured on some songs.
Why did you switch to digital?
Limiting myself to the analog sounds was making some tracks sound less modern. Part of me was sad to say that, because I’m a huge fan of analog synthesizers, but the new digital technology has enabled artists to work a lot quicker. The library of sounds is almost limitless. I used to make every single sound myself, and sculpt it specifically for that particular part in the track. Now, there’s so many sounds there that it’s almost impossible to avoid using them. I tend to modify them a little, but not as much as I used to. It’s much, much quicker now too. When we used to program things, I would spend literally a day in the studio programming a sound for the Fairlight, which was chunky and complicated. But now it would take me two to three minutes to find a much more complex sound. I’ve got huge options.
How do you avoid getting bogged down all the choices?
By knowing what it is you’re looking for, and by knowing your instruments. I’ve used the Roland V synths live, and I used them on this album extensively. I’ve gotten to know that synthesizer very well and can make it do whatever I want it to. That’s the thing with synthesizers; you have to be the master of them, because if you’re not, they can cause you trouble. They’re very complex, and it’s different programming digital than it was with analog. It took me a long time to become more comfortable with them. Analog synthesizers, I could make them sound like anything you wanted if you game me a couple of hours. I could make it from scratch. So it was quite a big move, but you’ve got to be prepared to run with technology, and that’s something that we’ve never been afraid of.
From his days as a teenager dabbling with primitive sequencers to his current role as a skilled keyboardist and producer, Rhodes helped define the sound- and look of 80's pop music with Duran Duran. Formed in 1978 when Rhodes was just 16 the group enjoyed worldwide mega success throughout the 80’s with synth-laced songs like: "Rio” and “Hungry Like the Wolf”. With their stylish, stylised music videos, they sold more than 85 million records along the way on the strength of Singapore Simon Le Bon’s sex appeal and Rhodes' innovative work on the keys.
Yet even now, 30 years into his career, Rhodes has no intention of backing away from the cutting edge.
“I'm excited when something is unique and breaks new ground” he says from London. “That’s part of the ethos of Duran Duran. We never want to be like anybody else."
The band set the pace again on its latest album, Red Carpet Massacre, becoming the first rock group to work with in demand urban producers Timbaland and Nate “Danja” Hills, who have produced hits for Justin Timberlake, Missy Elliott and Britney Spears.
How did you come to work with Timbaland?
He has honestly the only producer we could all agree on. We’ve worked with a lot of different producers during our career, and the ones we’ve got the most interesting out of have been urban producers. With four and at one time five of us in the band. {Currently the band consists of original members Rhodes, Len Bon, drummer Roger Taylor and bassist John Taylor}, there are a lot of ideas already, a lot of musicality, and we’re looking for someone who brings something new to the party. With a lot of the rock producers, we’ve got a lot of that stuff covered. Someone like Timbaland is a much more exciting proposition to us because he’s produced so many great records. We loved everything he did with Missy Elliot, his work with Justin Timberlake and Nelly Furtado. It just feels fresh. So we asked if he’d like to work with us and he was keen. He’d never worked with a rock band before, so it was a challenge for him. None of know what we were going to get out of it. But when we went in to the studio it was Nate Hills, Justin [Timberlake], Timberland and the four of us, so if we couldn’t get something new that we all liked out of that combination then we were doing something terribly wrong.
You came up with three songs very quickly with Timberland. What was it like that the first day in the Studio?
Everyone was very cautious at first. They've never seen so much live gear – guitars and amps and things. They didn’t know what to do. They’re used to working with a computer and keyboard. But we all wanted it to work, so we figured we needed to allow them to space to do what they were really great at, which is the beats and sonic quality. It was pretty extraordinary. They actually don’t work that radically different than we do, because we’re used to working with machines. It would have been a shock for a regular rock band but we’re such a hybrid. By the time we came to the third of the trilogy we did together “Skin Divers”, we started from scratch. We all plugged in and jammed together, just the six of us playing –and that was a real adrenaline rush. Tim is so great with his beats on keyboards, and Roger was playing live drums and John was playing live bass and Nate and I were playing melodies and keyboard parts. It was a different sort of wall of sound. But I love the way they work. They're enthusiastic, intelligent, quick. They make good decisions, and that is what production is about: knowing when you’ve the right thing and not being afraid to stick your neck out.
You didn’t’ mind sharing keyboard duties with Nate?
I loved it. Nate is a fantastic musician. He’s got great taste in sounds which is one of my only fears. I thought. : “Oh no, what if I really don’t like the sounds he comes out with?” and I figured, “Well, I’ll just tell him.” But there was no need. We have very similar tastes. It reached a point where Nate and I would jam on songs and listen back and not know who played what. That was great because we complemented each other and filled the gaps where the other left space.
You never had any formal musical training, so that drew you to the keyboards?
I was convinced when I was 13 or 14 that I should be a guitarist. After a couple of years I had mastered most of the barre chords, but I hadn’t taken to it like a duck to water, and I was getting more interest in electronic music. But synthesizers were very expensive. Moogs were thousands of pounds, and a 16-year old couldn't afford that. Then this synthesizer called the Wasp came out around 1978 when we stated he original line up of the band. So I worked, saved and bought it for a couple of hundred pounds. I had never learned keyboards so I started to learn about synthesizers and sound. I can’t tell you how thrilled I was that B came straight after A. And C came straight after B on the keyboards because I had no clue. Then I thought, “This really makes sense. Whoever came up with this really knew what they were doing.” I started with a monophonic synthesizer, developed from there and bought a polyphonic synthesizer. I stared to learn all the chords on it. Within the first couple of years, I had a fairly good understanding of how things worked, and by the time we did our first album, I’d mastered most of the machine. I understood sequencing a dhow to lock things together. I listed tot a lot of melodies and worked out a lot of other people’s songs. I taught myself like that.
Was you lack of formal training help or a hindrance?
A huge help, because I didn’t that to think about any rules. Some of the earlier Duran songs had minor melodies against major chords or the other way around – things that I don’t think a classically trained musician would feel comfortable with. We were never afraid of those things. I could take something wherever I wanted. Now that I know a little more theory because of all the songs we’ve written, I sometimes have to convince myself to break those rules and say, “That’s where it probably should go, but wouldn’t it be more interesting if it went somewhere else instead?”
What attracted you to electronic music?
Mostly Kraftwerk. Autobahn was the first of their albums I heard, and there was just something so different about it. It felt modern. Then with bands like the Human league that were a little head of us in England, and a lot of the German bands –NEU! I also liked some of Can – it felt like the future to me. I’ve always been very forward thinking. Even when I listened to David Bowies’ spectacular records Heroes and Low. I felt there was a lot one could do with electronics. I liked the idea that I could be in an orchestra. I could play strings and electronic drums and things that sounded somewhat like guitars. Now, obviously, with samples you can make it sound like anything you like, but even back then you could make something sound like a flute or violin. I know the idea of building layers. That’s what I did at the beginning, because I couldn’t play very complex piano parts with bother bands, so I would build all he separate parts. I could do them a couple of notes at a time, and it created a style that was unlike what you would have played on a piano. It sounded unique, but it worked, because I understood what notes I wanted in there.
Were you ever interested in a more classical approach to piano?
Not so much. I do have a piano at home and play sometimes. I love working things out. If I hear a beautiful melody, I like to go and figure it out –“Oh, it’s in that key! Interesting, now where does it go?” – Because when someone writes a beautiful song, the progression feels very natural even thought the best ones are surprising. You make it feel natural and seamless. The Beatles and Bowie were as good as anyone at that. But I never had the real urge to play Rachmaninoff. I don’t have the patience of time to spend becoming as good as I would want to be. I love listening to piano music, particularly Chopin’s “Nocturnes", but I don’t see myself as a pianist. I would never tell somebody I was. I’m a synthesist who plays with piano occasionally.
How does being a synthesist inform the way you produce music?
I think layers and layers of sound. We’ve always built out tracks in the studio. Now it’s so easy to put things in a computer and start building a song. At the beginning, we used to write them and then we’d go into eh studio and see how we wanted to structure the. We’d usually start at the bottom end with the bass and drums and possibly a sequencer. And then build things form there in layers. I’d think about it in the same way I’d think about and orchestra. Somebody once said to me, and I’m sure it’s a famous quote, that the space in music is equally important as wherever you put the notes. That stuck with me.
Has your approach changed over the years?
The biggest change is computers, technology and Pro Tools and, in synthesizers, the move from analog to digital, which I’ve resisted greatly. I did use digital synthesizer on “Notorious” and the Big Thing album. But during the 90’s I used analog things again because they sounded so much better. On the new album, I’ve used almost entirely digital synthesizers, and the dear old analog Jupiter 8 is featured on some songs.
Why did you switch to digital?
Limiting myself to the analog sounds was making some tracks sound less modern. Part of me was sad to say that, because I’m a huge fan of analog synthesizers, but the new digital technology has enabled artists to work a lot quicker. The library of sounds is almost limitless. I used to make every single sound myself, and sculpt it specifically for that particular part in the track. Now, there’s so many sounds there that it’s almost impossible to avoid using them. I tend to modify them a little, but not as much as I used to. It’s much, much quicker now too. When we used to program things, I would spend literally a day in the studio programming a sound for the Fairlight, which was chunky and complicated. But now it would take me two to three minutes to find a much more complex sound. I’ve got huge options.
How do you avoid getting bogged down all the choices?
By knowing what it is you’re looking for, and by knowing your instruments. I’ve used the Roland V synths live, and I used them on this album extensively. I’ve gotten to know that synthesizer very well and can make it do whatever I want it to. That’s the thing with synthesizers; you have to be the master of them, because if you’re not, they can cause you trouble. They’re very complex, and it’s different programming digital than it was with analog. It took me a long time to become more comfortable with them. Analog synthesizers, I could make them sound like anything you wanted if you game me a couple of hours. I could make it from scratch. So it was quite a big move, but you’ve got to be prepared to run with technology, and that’s something that we’ve never been afraid of.